For decades, “speaking in tongues” has been the butt of jokes. Now, a leading Evangelical asks Christians to take this nonsensical jibber-jabber seriously . . . and a growing number already do.
The Christian Post gives us a look into the mind of Pastor Brady Boyd, Senior Pastor at the New Life Church, the Colorado Springs, CO megachurch founded by disgraced pastor Ted Haggard. As part of a sermon series on The Supernatural — wouldn’t that be pretty much any sermon involving gods and demons? — Boyd covered “speaking in tongues”.
Glossolalia, or “speaking in tongues”, is also known as “ecstatic speech”. Speakers believe that they are speaking in another language, and others believe they can interpret it. What do linguists think?
. . . meaningless but phonologically structured human utterance, believed by the speaker to be a real language but bearing no systematic resemblance to any natural language, living or dead.
More explicitly, glossolalia:
consists of strings of syllables, made up of sounds taken from all those that the speaker knows, put together more or less haphazardly but emerging nevertheless as word-like and sentence-like units because of realistic, language-like rhythm and melody.
Other researchers have come to the same conclusions, that the speech produced in an ecstatic state is a mishmash of sounds from the speaker’s native language — not new sounds or sounds from other languages not known to the speaker — with no perceivable organization or meaning.
The truth is, speaking in tongues is the most intelligent, perfect language in the universe. It is God’s language.
Boyd grew up in churches which treasured the “gift” of “speaking in tongues”, by which they mean a “private prayer language”. It was so normal in the cults he attended, that Boyd believed that everyone could jabber nonsensically nearly from birth.
Oh, wait. They can.
Like all of the subset of Christians who believe that spouting gibberish is a “gift from God”, Boyd has to distort Scripture to reach his conclusion that speaking in tongues is anything but nonsense. However, he goes out of his way to insist that he follows Scripture perfectly, with a straightforward, face-value approach to the Bible.
Boyd asked the thousands in attendance to “let Scripture interpret Scripture” and approach the Bible as if they were reading it for the first time.
“I’m not going to stretch Scripture,” the New Life pastor emphasized.
Reading from Acts 2 in the New Testament, Boyd underscored the account that on the first day of the first church service, every one of the 120 people were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues.
“If I were reading the Bible for the very first time, as a young believer, and I was trying to make sense of this tongue thing, I think that would jump off the page at me and go ‘wow, if in the very first church service everyone there spoke in tongues when they were baptized in the Holy Spirit, it should be fairly common among us today,” said Boyd.
“I think that’s a safe assumption on all of our parts.”
I agree. If Boyd’s congregation were speaking in tongues the way it is described in Acts 2, that’d be quite something! But it’s not. And Boyd can’t help but know it:
The senior pastor went on to point out the God-fearing Jews who recognized that their language was being spoken by people that didn’t know the Jews’ native language.
Speaking in tongues, Boyd said, could be used to communicate the Gospel to unbelievers. Thousands were born again that day when the Holy Spirit first came down upon believers. And Boyd said he knows tons of stories of such witnessing in tongues happening today.
Boyd’s congregation doesn’t have Coloradans suddenly speaking fluent Swahili or Russian. That’s the recorded “miracle” of Acts 2; the apostles spoke fluently in existing, real languages they did not know:
Acts 2:3-4 “And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”
Acts 2:8 “And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?”
Acts 2:11 “Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.”
Far from speaking and hearing in different languages, Boyd’s congregation has Coloradans blabbing in something a step below baby talk — which often has an attempt at meaning behind it, unlike Godly gibberish — and calling it “God’s language”, while others decide what is intended and “interpret”.
Does that sound like the “miracle” from Acts 2 to you? Or any sort of a “gift”?
Boyd continues:
Sometimes we think tongues is just people getting in an emotional frenzy. But the spiritual gift is practical. It is intended to draw people to God.
I think that oftentimes we have made the spiritual gifts about us. ‘What does it do for me?’ Not every time are the spiritual gifts for you. Oftentimes gifts are there … to draw people to Christ.
Practical? How is it practical, when outsiders regard it as nonsense, and nobody but the speaker can understand it (if indeed there is intent behind the blabber)?
Here, Boyd again diverts from Scripture.
The apostle Paul had other thoughts on the matter. In the first letter to the church at Corinth, which was apparently quite taken with ecstatic speaking, Paul warns against allowing the practice to get out of control:
1 Corinthians 14:9 “So likewise you, except you utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for you shall speak into the air.”
1 Corinthians 14:13-14 “Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.”
1 Corinthians 14:21-23 “In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that you are mad?”
Ecstatic speech, then, serves only the speaker; the opposite of Boyd’s contention.
I thought he wouldn’t stretch Scripture. It sounds to me as though he’s twisted and pulled it until it fairly shrieks!
What possible reason could Boyd have for his abuse of Scripture? Look, a poll!
For a Biblical perspective on speaking in tongues, have a look HERE.
I have seen this so called speaking in tongues and it has always sounded like baby talk to me. The people that I have seen doing it have always been the same ones and I just figure it is their way of showing how they are favored by their god.
I grew up Pentecostal. I spoke in tongues a lot. I agree with the post above. We're inculcated with language and the way language should sound from before the time we can think for ourselves. It's a trivial matter to make up nonsense sounds and hang them on the scaffolding of the language structures we've learned. The "real" speaking in tongues–the kind where the speaker uses a language he genuinely doesn't know, but others in attendance know–suffers from the problem all miracles do: they're not verifiable. They're always conveniently removed from us by space or time or both.
I saw a young girl "speaking in tongues" once, with tears in her eyes because she was so overwhelmed. She literally said a string of nothing but "lalalalalalalalalalala" for a very long time because she didn't realize how silly it sounded. I've noticed that glossolaliacs tend to make more convincing "sentences" as they get older and become a bit more self-conscious of what language is supposed to sound like. This shows that it's a conscious process and not "God speaking through them." Heck, jazz artists can scat "bee bee da bop boo dee boo da ba da ba ba" better than most Pentecostals.
I noticed a similar phenomenon with alleged "possessions." If you've ever heard an audio recording of the supposedly "possessed" Annelise Michel, you notice a few things wrong with it. 1) Why does the Devil conveniently speak German? 2) Why does the demon, who is supposedly speaking THROUGH Annelise, refer to himself in the third person and Annelise in the first person?
So what if it is gobbledegook – God looks at the heart. You don't think he can understand the person's emotion? Their sentiment? When words seem inadequate, when the heart longs to connect with the father, when we are willing to strip ourselves of the fear of looking foolish to press in towards God, don't you think he gets it?
Be careful of boundaries and boxes that are man made. Tongues isn't always about a frenzy, an emotional response, a lack of eloquence or an attempt to create God moments where there are none – and sometimes it is those things and sometimes that's alright. if you're not comfortable with it, or you don't get it, then don't do it – I know there are some Christians who don't believe you are a 'proper' Christian unless you can speak in tongues and I don't say that is right either, but once we start being all sanctimonious about people's interpretation of the Bible you open up a can of worms.
Yes i think there are some good arguments in this use of scripture but I also know that no exposition of the Bible can be free from interpretation. Everything we approach we do so bringing our own values and experience to bear on it, and even if those are good values and experiences (and who are you to say what is good?) they are not all-encompassing.
Interpret this as you feel fit;
Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body. Now all has been heard, here is the conclusion of the matter… Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.
Of course they did, Barrie. That would explain why such a performance has never been captured on any of the thousands (probably millions) of hours of tape of "tongues-speaking".
I also grew up as a charismatic Pentecostal. I’ve never witness a true speaking in tongues in any church from the Pentecostal to the Assemblies Of God movement. All they do is the gibberish sounds which make believers look like fools to the world. Instead of bringing non-believers in they scare them off. In this way these believers go against 1 Corinthians 14:23. Sadly my own father believes that he speaks in tongues. He starts of by listening to music and he gets into this emotional frenzy and starts screaming wuahuah wauh and I think he believes that he is speaking in tongues. I’ve told him and showed him through scripture that what is going on in churches today is not the gift of tongues. I believe such gifts have ceased from the apostles age. You don’t have people picking up snakes and drinking poison and not being harmed these days. I to believe that these gibberish speakers believe that they are in a higher spiritual level. Just like the church in Corinth much believed. That’s why Paul had to put a tongue lashing on them.
I'm a 17-year-old Pentcostal Christian and everyone at my church (genuinely) speaks in tongues. I was baptised last year and later received the gift of tongues. I was unsure at first, but I am absolutely convinced that it is the real deal and it is a sign of the Lord Jesus Christ dwelling inside of me.
Many people from my church have been healed of various illnesses (for example my own father was healed of Crohn's disease which is incurable, others have been healed of skin and lung cancer, etc). The reaosn I'm here on this earth today is because my father was healed – doctors had told him he would have only months to live. The miracles parallel those which occurred in Jesus' time.
So if The Bible is right about healings and this part is still entirely relevant today, how could people simply assume that the rest of the Bible is either fictional or irrelevant? I've seen first-hand the power of prayer, faith and speakin in tongues – so why discount it? If you believe in God, then why would you believe that God's Word contains false information?
Hi, Issy! In what documented languages that you do not know can you now speak?
That was the miracle in Acts, that the Apostles spoke in what they thought was their native tongue, and listeners all heard the Apostles speaking in THEIR native tongues. So I assume that's what you can do, not jabber in "ecstatic speech".
So, which languages? When can you arrange a demonstration?
Also, I'd love to see the file about your father's miraculous and unexplained recovery from Crohn's disease. That should be published in a medical journal! You are aware that Crohn's is typically not fatal, correct? And that the disease is marked by flare-ups of symptoms followed by remission? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH00012… Or at least that's what the doctors say.
Also, the documentation about the miraculous, medicine-free cures of skin and lung cancer would be of great interest. Why haven't they been in the press? Documented miracles are hard to come by.
1) I find it interesting the number of times you've repeated the word "documented".
2) I'm interested to know what your beliefs are. And what events or situations prompted you to write the article that these comments are all in response to? I'm assuming that you are not filled with the Holy Spirit or you probably wouldn't have posted the article in the first place.
Right, now onto my reply…
You used this scripture in your article:
“Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.”
Speaking in tongues is used for the edification of people's faith and for them to communicate with God in his holy language. The gift of interpretation follows tongues in our church services (and those of many other churches). Someone is moved by the Spirit to speak out in tongues and then someone else speaks out in English (or whatever the shared language of the congregation is) and provides an interpretation, with the words given by God. In this way we may all understand what is being spoken. Just because we cannot understand the language does not mean it is fake – it is simply from us to God.
In regards to the apostles being able to speak real, living languages when the Holy Spirit came upon them in Acts, the other people gathered there still didn't actually understand what they were saying as in Acts 2:12 it says: "Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”" Even though it was in their language, they still did not understand what was happening. Occasionally people will understand some words that a Spirit-filled Christian is speaking – but these are rare cases.
The important point here is that speaking in tongues is a SIGN to non-believers. It is not used to communicate messages to others – it was never used to preach. It is a sign.
You (and others) have called it 'ecstatic speech'. A number of spirit-filled Christians jabber away in tongues and to onlookers, it may seem pretty peculiar and they may deny its credibility. However, many others speak fluently, clearly and the words are well-pronounced – leaving no doubt that this is a real language. A lot of Christians do believe that it's best to be articulate because then it would have a more profound effect on onlookers and serve as a more effective sign (but hey, what does it matter if you're talking to God. He knows what the Spirit is saying).
Okay this is important: this is exactly the same as speakers of any other language. I speak Spanish and English and even though I can understand them perfectly well, some people mutter and mumble, slur their words and talk really fast. I won't even catch a word of what they're saying. We always value the skill of being articulate. If some people mumble the language they are born with or have a strange accent, do you say they don't speak a 'real' language? Just because some don't speak their words clearly, it's not like they don't speak the language or it is ‘fake’ speech, etc. The same argument can't be applied to tongues in an attempt to discredit it.
The language is real. It's just the delivery by some that seems to cause problems for you..?
In other words, you are not "speaking in tongues" as the Apostles did, you are jabbering in nonsensical "ecstatic speech".
If you bothered to read the article, or any research on ecstatic speech, you would find that in every culture where it occurs — and there are many non-English-speaking, and non-Christian occurrences — it is always made up of the same phonemes as the speaker's native language.
You appear to know more than I (a spirit-filled Christian) do about the language I can speak.
Interesting.
AsI have already stated, the miracle in Acts was NOT that they could speak in earthly tongues.
Tongues is NOT used for preaching.
The miracle in Acts was clearly that each man listening heard the Apostles speaking in each man's native tongue. You can deny what the Bible says all you like, Issy, but it's right there in Acts 2:1-11:
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
There is not a word about them jabbering nonsensically in "heavenly jibberjabber".
Yeah, both my dad and my friend's dad contracted Crohn's disease and were both healed. My dad often gives his testimony at various events and to various people he witnesses to and his testimony has been written down, but I'm assuming you mean medical files and such. I am aware that nowadays there are improved treatments for Crohn's, but no absolute cures. (Furthermore, the healing occurred 20 years ago).
Why haven't these miracles been documented? Well, lots of them have. There are countless miracles online (and also in the book I have on my bedside table entitled 'Healing The Sick' by T.L. Osborn).
So, just to conclude, I'm interested to hear whether you're a Christian/what sect/etc and why you've decided to attempt to discredit the Bible….?
Yes, there are no absolute cures. But it frequently goes into remission, as noted in the NIH site I posted for you. It also mimics IBS, and can be controlled through diet.
What of all the skin and lung cancer cures you have mentioned? They occurred in your church,and you are 17 years old (so you weren't even born when your father had, was diagnosed with, and was cured of Crohn's?), so surely they must have records.
When did I say they made anything up, Issy? As I've repeatedly told you, Crohn's comes and goes. It also mimics irritable bowel syndrome. There is no evidence that your father ever HAD Crohn's without a diagnosis, and no evidence that it was "miraculously healed". He may simply have changed his diet and stopped eating something that irritated his stomach.
You implied it when you said "What of all the skin and lung cancer cures you have mentioned?".
Also, you just blatantly said that my dad had made up his illness.
OF COURSE he went to a doctor and got it diagnosed correctly. He had ALL the symptoms. I'm fairly (and by that I mean completely) sure that the doctors knew far more about the disease than you do, and that they diagnosed him correctly.
And he was HEALED of it after several months
Why do you find it so hard to believe?
I can tell you more testimonies if you like?
I said no such thing. I said that Crohn's disease mimics IBS and could be diagnosed, and that it can be controlled by diet, and that it is not fatal.
Crohn's also goes into remission, as the link I provided shows.
Stop concerning yourself with playing the persecuted victim, Issy, and start providing evidence. Your say-so isn't evidence. Medical records of all these wonderful healings you've mentioned demonstrating their inexplicable cure without medical intervention would be evidence . . . Of course, if any such miracle cures occurred, they'd be in the papers, don't you think?
I remember doing this when I was a child. The thing is, I knew I was faking, but I wanted to fit in. Why is it that nobody around me could tell if I was faking it since it's such a "Holy Language"?
The thing with that is you need to make a conscious decision to follow Jesus Christ for the rest of your life. It's not about making it up and fitting it, it's about you having apersonal relationship with your Creator .
There's a lady at my church who didn't receive tongues for 2 years. She had tried and tried by couldn't do it, until one day when she could. I's real gift and God gives it to everyone in his own time.
I think you should give it another go. Repent and get baptised and God will fil you with His Holy Spirit.
When Paul wrote to the church at Corinth, his letter to them was not to instruct them to continue to speak in tongues, it was to chastise them for doing what they were doing. They were abusing a gift of God for the sake of seeing a miracle happen in their midst repeatedly, that had no value anymore. It had no value any longer because the sole purpose of tongues was to give a sign to the unbeliever.
1 Corinthians 14:22
Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
Paul was telling them that Prophecy was what really needed, and not continued speaking in tongues that served them no purpose.
But when the 1st century church did speak in tongues for a sign to those that did not yet believe, it was a known language, not some yabba daba doo unintelligible gibberish that we hear people doing today.
If the GIBBERISH that is being spoken today is really a miracle of tongues from GOD, then why arent those same people performing other miracles, like healing the lame or giving sight to the blind or raising the dead??
The simple answer is that the nonsense that today is being called tongues is silly gibberish, and they that speak it are not involved with a miracle of GOD, but a deception of their own flesh.
(Repent,, while u can)
Incidentally, the verses in 1 Corinthians 14 where the term "unknown tongue" is used about 6 times, is not accurate scripture. The word "unknown" was added by the translators of the 1611 KJV and was never found in the original manuscripts. Also, in 1 Corinthians 13:1 when Paul says "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels"
,, He is not saying that he can speak with the tongue of an angel… Many charismatics use these verses to justify the non-sensical gibberish that they utter,, calling their speech a heavenly/angelic language…
But what Paul was saying was that whether we are a human and speak a human known language,, or if we are an angel the is sitting before the throne of GOD, speaking however he speaks,, if I have not LOVE,, I am nothing.. Paul was simply drawing a stark contrast,, and not saying that somehow people were out speaking like angels.. When John was given the revelation to write, does he tell us that the angel that spoke with him spoke in some heavenly language??? NO,, but John simply heard what he was supposed to hear. He does not record some silly language of crazy "ecstatic" gibberish.
I have seen this so called speaking in tongues and it has always sounded like baby talk to me. The people that I have seen doing it have always been the same ones and I just figure it is their way of showing how they are favored by their god.
I grew up Pentecostal. I spoke in tongues a lot. I agree with the post above. We're inculcated with language and the way language should sound from before the time we can think for ourselves. It's a trivial matter to make up nonsense sounds and hang them on the scaffolding of the language structures we've learned. The "real" speaking in tongues–the kind where the speaker uses a language he genuinely doesn't know, but others in attendance know–suffers from the problem all miracles do: they're not verifiable. They're always conveniently removed from us by space or time or both.
I saw a young girl "speaking in tongues" once, with tears in her eyes because she was so overwhelmed. She literally said a string of nothing but "lalalalalalalalalalala" for a very long time because she didn't realize how silly it sounded. I've noticed that glossolaliacs tend to make more convincing "sentences" as they get older and become a bit more self-conscious of what language is supposed to sound like. This shows that it's a conscious process and not "God speaking through them." Heck, jazz artists can scat "bee bee da bop boo dee boo da ba da ba ba" better than most Pentecostals.
I noticed a similar phenomenon with alleged "possessions." If you've ever heard an audio recording of the supposedly "possessed" Annelise Michel, you notice a few things wrong with it. 1) Why does the Devil conveniently speak German? 2) Why does the demon, who is supposedly speaking THROUGH Annelise, refer to himself in the third person and Annelise in the first person?
Continued from above:
So what if it is gobbledegook – God looks at the heart. You don't think he can understand the person's emotion? Their sentiment? When words seem inadequate, when the heart longs to connect with the father, when we are willing to strip ourselves of the fear of looking foolish to press in towards God, don't you think he gets it?
Be careful of boundaries and boxes that are man made. Tongues isn't always about a frenzy, an emotional response, a lack of eloquence or an attempt to create God moments where there are none – and sometimes it is those things and sometimes that's alright. if you're not comfortable with it, or you don't get it, then don't do it – I know there are some Christians who don't believe you are a 'proper' Christian unless you can speak in tongues and I don't say that is right either, but once we start being all sanctimonious about people's interpretation of the Bible you open up a can of worms.
Barrie, tongues is for everyone
.
Continued from above (phew!):
Yes i think there are some good arguments in this use of scripture but I also know that no exposition of the Bible can be free from interpretation. Everything we approach we do so bringing our own values and experience to bear on it, and even if those are good values and experiences (and who are you to say what is good?) they are not all-encompassing.
Interpret this as you feel fit;
Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body. Now all has been heard, here is the conclusion of the matter… Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.
Of course they did, Barrie. That would explain why such a performance has never been captured on any of the thousands (probably millions) of hours of tape of "tongues-speaking".
Ever.
I also grew up as a charismatic Pentecostal. I’ve never witness a true speaking in tongues in any church from the Pentecostal to the Assemblies Of God movement. All they do is the gibberish sounds which make believers look like fools to the world. Instead of bringing non-believers in they scare them off. In this way these believers go against 1 Corinthians 14:23. Sadly my own father believes that he speaks in tongues. He starts of by listening to music and he gets into this emotional frenzy and starts screaming wuahuah wauh and I think he believes that he is speaking in tongues. I’ve told him and showed him through scripture that what is going on in churches today is not the gift of tongues. I believe such gifts have ceased from the apostles age. You don’t have people picking up snakes and drinking poison and not being harmed these days. I to believe that these gibberish speakers believe that they are in a higher spiritual level. Just like the church in Corinth much believed. That’s why Paul had to put a tongue lashing on them.
I'm a 17-year-old Pentcostal Christian and everyone at my church (genuinely) speaks in tongues. I was baptised last year and later received the gift of tongues. I was unsure at first, but I am absolutely convinced that it is the real deal and it is a sign of the Lord Jesus Christ dwelling inside of me.
Many people from my church have been healed of various illnesses (for example my own father was healed of Crohn's disease which is incurable, others have been healed of skin and lung cancer, etc). The reaosn I'm here on this earth today is because my father was healed – doctors had told him he would have only months to live. The miracles parallel those which occurred in Jesus' time.
So if The Bible is right about healings and this part is still entirely relevant today, how could people simply assume that the rest of the Bible is either fictional or irrelevant? I've seen first-hand the power of prayer, faith and speakin in tongues – so why discount it? If you believe in God, then why would you believe that God's Word contains false information?
Hi, Issy! In what documented languages that you do not know can you now speak?
That was the miracle in Acts, that the Apostles spoke in what they thought was their native tongue, and listeners all heard the Apostles speaking in THEIR native tongues. So I assume that's what you can do, not jabber in "ecstatic speech".
So, which languages? When can you arrange a demonstration?
Also, I'd love to see the file about your father's miraculous and unexplained recovery from Crohn's disease. That should be published in a medical journal! You are aware that Crohn's is typically not fatal, correct? And that the disease is marked by flare-ups of symptoms followed by remission? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH00012… Or at least that's what the doctors say.
Also, the documentation about the miraculous, medicine-free cures of skin and lung cancer would be of great interest. Why haven't they been in the press? Documented miracles are hard to come by.
1) I find it interesting the number of times you've repeated the word "documented".
2) I'm interested to know what your beliefs are. And what events or situations prompted you to write the article that these comments are all in response to? I'm assuming that you are not filled with the Holy Spirit or you probably wouldn't have posted the article in the first place.
Right, now onto my reply…
You used this scripture in your article:
“Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.”
Did you bother to read the article before commenting?
Of course.
Speaking in tongues is used for the edification of people's faith and for them to communicate with God in his holy language. The gift of interpretation follows tongues in our church services (and those of many other churches). Someone is moved by the Spirit to speak out in tongues and then someone else speaks out in English (or whatever the shared language of the congregation is) and provides an interpretation, with the words given by God. In this way we may all understand what is being spoken. Just because we cannot understand the language does not mean it is fake – it is simply from us to God.
In regards to the apostles being able to speak real, living languages when the Holy Spirit came upon them in Acts, the other people gathered there still didn't actually understand what they were saying as in Acts 2:12 it says: "Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”" Even though it was in their language, they still did not understand what was happening. Occasionally people will understand some words that a Spirit-filled Christian is speaking – but these are rare cases.
The important point here is that speaking in tongues is a SIGN to non-believers. It is not used to communicate messages to others – it was never used to preach. It is a sign.
You (and others) have called it 'ecstatic speech'. A number of spirit-filled Christians jabber away in tongues and to onlookers, it may seem pretty peculiar and they may deny its credibility. However, many others speak fluently, clearly and the words are well-pronounced – leaving no doubt that this is a real language. A lot of Christians do believe that it's best to be articulate because then it would have a more profound effect on onlookers and serve as a more effective sign (but hey, what does it matter if you're talking to God. He knows what the Spirit is saying).
Okay this is important: this is exactly the same as speakers of any other language. I speak Spanish and English and even though I can understand them perfectly well, some people mutter and mumble, slur their words and talk really fast. I won't even catch a word of what they're saying. We always value the skill of being articulate. If some people mumble the language they are born with or have a strange accent, do you say they don't speak a 'real' language? Just because some don't speak their words clearly, it's not like they don't speak the language or it is ‘fake’ speech, etc. The same argument can't be applied to tongues in an attempt to discredit it.
The language is real. It's just the delivery by some that seems to cause problems for you..?
In other words, you are not "speaking in tongues" as the Apostles did, you are jabbering in nonsensical "ecstatic speech".
If you bothered to read the article, or any research on ecstatic speech, you would find that in every culture where it occurs — and there are many non-English-speaking, and non-Christian occurrences — it is always made up of the same phonemes as the speaker's native language.
You appear to know more than I (a spirit-filled Christian) do about the language I can speak.
Interesting.
AsI have already stated, the miracle in Acts was NOT that they could speak in earthly tongues.
Tongues is NOT used for preaching.
The miracle in Acts was clearly that each man listening heard the Apostles speaking in each man's native tongue. You can deny what the Bible says all you like, Issy, but it's right there in Acts 2:1-11:
There is not a word about them jabbering nonsensically in "heavenly jibberjabber".
Yeah, both my dad and my friend's dad contracted Crohn's disease and were both healed. My dad often gives his testimony at various events and to various people he witnesses to and his testimony has been written down, but I'm assuming you mean medical files and such. I am aware that nowadays there are improved treatments for Crohn's, but no absolute cures. (Furthermore, the healing occurred 20 years ago).
Why haven't these miracles been documented? Well, lots of them have. There are countless miracles online (and also in the book I have on my bedside table entitled 'Healing The Sick' by T.L. Osborn).
So, just to conclude, I'm interested to hear whether you're a Christian/what sect/etc and why you've decided to attempt to discredit the Bible….?
Well that was extremely long! Happy reading
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Yes, there are no absolute cures. But it frequently goes into remission, as noted in the NIH site I posted for you. It also mimics IBS, and can be controlled through diet.
What of all the skin and lung cancer cures you have mentioned? They occurred in your church,and you are 17 years old (so you weren't even born when your father had, was diagnosed with, and was cured of Crohn's?), so surely they must have records.
They have records as in written accounts of what happened to them.
If you mean medical records then I don't know – I haven't exactly asked everyone.
How interesting that you think the people at my church would make up an illness as well as a miraculous healing just to prove that their God exists.
When did I say they made anything up, Issy? As I've repeatedly told you, Crohn's comes and goes. It also mimics irritable bowel syndrome. There is no evidence that your father ever HAD Crohn's without a diagnosis, and no evidence that it was "miraculously healed". He may simply have changed his diet and stopped eating something that irritated his stomach.
You implied it when you said "What of all the skin and lung cancer cures you have mentioned?".
Also, you just blatantly said that my dad had made up his illness.
OF COURSE he went to a doctor and got it diagnosed correctly. He had ALL the symptoms. I'm fairly (and by that I mean completely) sure that the doctors knew far more about the disease than you do, and that they diagnosed him correctly.
And he was HEALED of it after several months
Why do you find it so hard to believe?
I can tell you more testimonies if you like?
I said no such thing. I said that Crohn's disease mimics IBS and could be diagnosed, and that it can be controlled by diet, and that it is not fatal.
Crohn's also goes into remission, as the link I provided shows.
Stop concerning yourself with playing the persecuted victim, Issy, and start providing evidence. Your say-so isn't evidence. Medical records of all these wonderful healings you've mentioned demonstrating their inexplicable cure without medical intervention would be evidence . . . Of course, if any such miracle cures occurred, they'd be in the papers, don't you think?
I remember doing this when I was a child. The thing is, I knew I was faking, but I wanted to fit in. Why is it that nobody around me could tell if I was faking it since it's such a "Holy Language"?
The thing with that is you need to make a conscious decision to follow Jesus Christ for the rest of your life. It's not about making it up and fitting it, it's about you having apersonal relationship with your Creator
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There's a lady at my church who didn't receive tongues for 2 years. She had tried and tried by couldn't do it, until one day when she could. I's real gift and God gives it to everyone in his own time.
I think you should give it another go. Repent and get baptised and God will fil you with His Holy Spirit.
When Paul wrote to the church at Corinth, his letter to them was not to instruct them to continue to speak in tongues, it was to chastise them for doing what they were doing. They were abusing a gift of God for the sake of seeing a miracle happen in their midst repeatedly, that had no value anymore. It had no value any longer because the sole purpose of tongues was to give a sign to the unbeliever.
1 Corinthians 14:22
Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
Paul was telling them that Prophecy was what really needed, and not continued speaking in tongues that served them no purpose.
But when the 1st century church did speak in tongues for a sign to those that did not yet believe, it was a known language, not some yabba daba doo unintelligible gibberish that we hear people doing today.
If the GIBBERISH that is being spoken today is really a miracle of tongues from GOD, then why arent those same people performing other miracles, like healing the lame or giving sight to the blind or raising the dead??
The simple answer is that the nonsense that today is being called tongues is silly gibberish, and they that speak it are not involved with a miracle of GOD, but a deception of their own flesh.
(Repent,, while u can)
Incidentally, the verses in 1 Corinthians 14 where the term "unknown tongue" is used about 6 times, is not accurate scripture. The word "unknown" was added by the translators of the 1611 KJV and was never found in the original manuscripts. Also, in 1 Corinthians 13:1 when Paul says "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels"
,, He is not saying that he can speak with the tongue of an angel… Many charismatics use these verses to justify the non-sensical gibberish that they utter,, calling their speech a heavenly/angelic language…
But what Paul was saying was that whether we are a human and speak a human known language,, or if we are an angel the is sitting before the throne of GOD, speaking however he speaks,, if I have not LOVE,, I am nothing.. Paul was simply drawing a stark contrast,, and not saying that somehow people were out speaking like angels.. When John was given the revelation to write, does he tell us that the angel that spoke with him spoke in some heavenly language??? NO,, but John simply heard what he was supposed to hear. He does not record some silly language of crazy "ecstatic" gibberish.
All these so-called miracles. Have you ever heard of someone with one leg suddenly getting another? Now THAT would be a miracle.