Irish atheists are horrified by new legislation making blasphemy illegal, and punishable by a 25,000-Euro fine. Christians of all stripes should be, too.
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As part of a revision to defamation legislation, the Dail (Irish Parliament) passed legislation creating a new crime of blasphemy. Update: The bill went to the Seanad on Friday, July 10, passing by a single vote. This attack on free speech, debated for several months in Europe, has gone largely unnoticed in the American press.
The text of the legislation is provided at the end of this post.
How does this impact free speech? Just don’t be rude.
- Atheists can be prosecuted for saying that God is imaginary. That causes outrage.
- Pagans can be prosecuted for saying they left Christianity because God is violent and bloodthirsty, promotes genocide, and permits slavery.
- Christians can be prosecuted for saying that Allah is a moon god, or for drawing a picture of Mohammed, or for saying that Islam is a violent religion which breeds terrorists.
- Jews can be prosecuted for saying Jesus isn’t the Messiah.
Is it really THAT big a deal?
Ireland’s Blasphemy Bill not only criminalizes free speech, it also gives the police the authority to confiscate anything deemed “blasphemous”. They may enter and search any premises, with force if needed, upon “reasonable suspicion” that such materials are present.
- The local Freethinkers society, with its copies of Hitchens’ God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
.
- The video store, with copies of The God Who Wasn’t There
.
- The history teacher, who uses The Dark Side of Christian History
to teach her class.
- The library, with its collection of books deemed blasphemous
.
- Even the homeowner who lets the wrong person know he has a copy of Salman Rushdie’s The Satanic Verses
could find his door broken in by the Thought Police, his bookshelves ransacked, and his books burning in the front yard!
Satirizing religion in any way, shape, or form, if it “causes outrage”, is now a prosecutable offense in Ireland. Saying anything negative about a religion, if it “causes outrage”, can now be prosecuted as a crime. Just like in Muslim countries.
Witness the return of the Dark Ages.
Update: The bill passed the Seanad on Friday, July 10, by a single vote. From the Irish Times:
Seanad deputy leader Dan Boyle (Green Party) indicated his party’s preference for a constitutional referendum in “the mid-term” on the issue of blasphemy. However, Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern said he would hazard a guess it was unlikely they would come back to this issue for some time.
The Minister rejected Mr Regan’s contention that the matter of blasphemy could be adequately dealt with by an amendment to the Incitement to Hatred Act, saying what was blasphemous did not necessarily constitute incitement to hatred.
During exchanges with Ivana Bacik, the Minister said he had never in his political career received so many e-mails expressing outrage as he had on this issue. Ms Bacik said under the proposed legislation, Fr Willie Russell from Rathkeale, Co Limerick, a critic of those in his parish who appeared to be worshipping a tree with the appearance of the Blessed Virgin Mary, could be open to a charge of blasphemy because he had stated that no one could “worship a tree”.
Let’s see if he gets charged.
The text of the legislation:
36. Publication or utterance of blasphemous matter.
(1) A person who publishes or utters blasphemous matter shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable upon conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding €100,000. [Amended to €25,000]
(2) For the purposes of this section, a person publishes or utters blasphemous matter if (a) he or she publishes or utters matter that is grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any religion, thereby causing outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion, and (b) he or she intends, by the publication or utterance of the matter concerned, to cause such outrage.
(3) It shall be a defence to proceedings for an offence under this section for the defendant to prove that a reasonable person would find genuine literary, artistic, political, scientific, or academic value in the matter to which the offence relates.
37. Seizure of copies of blasphemous statements.
(1) Where a person is convicted of an offence under section 36, the court may issue a warrant (a) authorising any member of the Garda Siochana to enter (if necessary by the use of reasonable force) at all reasonable times any premises (including a dwelling) at which he or she has reasonable grounds for believing that copies of the statement to which the offence related are to be found, and to search those premises and seize and remove all copies of the statement found therein, (b) directing the seizure and removal by any member of the Garda Siochana of all copies of the statement to which the offence related that are in the possession of any person, © specifying the manner in which copies so seized and removed shall be detained and stored by the Garda Siochana.
(2) A member of the Garda Siochana may (a) enter and search any premises, (b) seize, remove and detain any copy of a statement to which an offence under section 36 relates found therein or in the possession of any person, in accordance with a warrant under subsection (1).
(3) Upon final judgment being given in proceedings for an offence under section 36, anything seized and removed under subsection (2) shall be disposed of in accordance with such directions as the court may give upon an application by a member of the Garda Siochana in that behalf.
This is the sort of thing I’d expect from Christian Dominionist Loren Cunningham, wouldn’t you?
Or how about the wacky City Council of Kissimmee, Florida, who wants to put “In God We Trust” on their city logo . . . to support CAPITALISM?
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So, public viewings of Monty Python’s “Life of Brian” are right out then?
Life of Brian was banned for a long time in Ireland actually. Luckily the Gardaí are too useless to enforce something like this but still a ridiculous law.
Life of Brian is a film about blasphemy, not a blasphemous film. It satires organised religion in general. The majority of those who called for it to be banned hadn’t actually seen it… no change there then.
This kind of stupidity is blind to such nuances.
I have officially begun a boycott of Ireland. Please follow: boycottireland.org
While it is not much right now, I will be launching a full fledged website in the days to come.
-Jonathan
as soon as you do ill be one of the first to join on that seriously this is so messed up. What happened to free speech?
the life of brain was banned for years in Ireland lol I no because I remember when it was ligalized here lol
how about muslims? same rules?
Same rules for everybody, and you can bet they’ll be the first to start crying foul.
Pastor Mike casts the first stone! Well played, Pastor.
Ireland actually has no muslims, only nice, God fearing Christian folk.
All non-married women are virgins, married women revert to being virgins again immediately after giving birth to their last child, and every house has ‘The Crucifixion’ hanging in the living room.
There is no such thing as blasphemy in Ireland, therefore this law will not change anything.
Oh, and fish on Fridays.
Don’t even joke about this kind of crap, it’s bad enough that Americans think that Ireland has lepreacáin and that we all still live on farms amidst a potato famine.
It’s not like you guys are giving us much of a reason not to think that way….especially now
Seriously, I would never visit Ireland after reading this. Maybe they should worry about the hard-hitting issues instead, like alcoholism and melanoma.
THERE IS NO GOD (Burden of proof is on Ireland to disprove this statement before their bullshit law has any meaning — good luck).
Don’t worry about it. We have our own brand of stupidity right here in Arizona USA. One state senator explains that the earth is only 6000 years old. I used to think it was only the “dumbing down” of America, but now I can see it’s worldwide.
We just need to start openly punching people in the face for saying or doing stupid things. Think of it as a sort of societal “tough love.” Hopefully they don’t outlaw that too…
I’m pretty sure punching people is frowned upon and stupid things are relative to the observer. We could just as easily be the recipients of said punches since, undoubtably, many people think we say and do stupid things as well. I guess my point is, that we should all live and let live, intervening only when actual harm is done (and by “harm”, I don’t mean the hurt little feelings of people who are outraged by mere words spoken against their invisible “friend”).
The joke I was trying to make was that the Irish drink heavily and often engage in fist-fights, as is a typical custom when meeting someone new or opening the door for a woman. Thankfully this only applies to women without child, so this is a rare occurrence.
Prove to me, without a shadow of a doubt that god is real. Then and ONLY then can there be a word made up to describe dissing it. So to me this problem does not exist.
But wouldn’t punching someone in the face be blasphemous to certain pacifist religious groups?
I can see in a certain sense as to why this bill is a cap on “free speech” (I highlight this because I want someone to define free)but only to the point of to put it plainly, being rude. i.e. you say to said religious person “God is a %$%$£& moron and you are too for believing in him. Something which we wouldn’t accept even if God wasn’t involved. That’s just going out of your way to offend people for the sake of it. I personally am an agnostic but strongly leaning towards atheism but I say if someone wants to believe in god that’s fine. It’s not hurting me personally. But if you look again at section 3 of 36 it says that in your defence you can make strong arguments against religion if it has academic, scientific etc merit. So basically you can say, I don’t believe in god because, and lay out your facts i.e. I don’t think the world is 6000 years old, or I don’t think I should be stoned because I worked the sabbath day and where did the dinosaurs come from so? just to name a few.
Finally I want to add the point that while most atheists aren’t offended by peoples belief in religion, most religious people are offended by atheists non-belief in religion.
Does that go for Rastafarianism too?
If it’s classed as a religion in Ireland then yes.
yea – they’ll steal your weed!
What if I find it offensive to have my weed stolen? And let’s remove the words ‘What if’ and end the sentence with a period rather than a question mark.
Pastafarianism. Will there be a fine if someone says they don’t like spaghetti?
From reading the actual legislation, it’s basically a cap on freedom of speech. It’s fucking ridiculous. You cannot say anything that might offend religions or religious people.
Which is stupid! Jewish people believe that Jesus wasn’t the messiah, but they can’t say that under this new law, because that’s blasphemous against christians! Likewise with people who don’t believe in a god at all! Atheist now cannot say that they don’t think their is a god, or that there isn’t a god, because that’s offensive to pretty much all religions!
Everyone has their own beliefs, and everyone has their own opinion, why should it be allowed for them to be capped or stemmed? I don’t care if what you’re saying is racist, or sexist. I don’t even care if it’s insulting to my dead Nan! You should be allowed to say it, whether or not it offends people.
Can you tell me where I can read the actual legislation? The article cited by this post doesn’t substantiate the claims made in this post, but maybe there’s some other document that does.
This article in the Irish Times by Michael Nugent of Atheist Ireland will gives a more detailed overview of this embarrassing law and it’s causes.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0710/1224250387007.html
The Irish Constituition states that blasphemy should be a crime, the Justice Minister wished to repeal the statute that includes the current anti-blasphemy law (which the courts have ruled unenforceable). His goal is to replace one unenforceable law with another one (as a law is required by the Constituition – section 36.3 should make this law unenforceable in practice, we just need someone with deep pockets to provoke a test case to set the precedent), rather than run the risk of holding a referendum on the issue (required to change the Constituition) which opens up the possibility of religious nut-jobs actually winning and forcing the government to implement an enforceable law. Obviously, there is always the risk that his unenforceable law will turn out to be enforceable (especially seeing as the Gaelic translation will have legal precedence over the English language original definition), but presumably he deems this a lower risk than an unpopular government running a religious referendum at this time.
Anyway, welcome to Irish politics…
I think, if you preface any statment with “with due respect” – you have shown that your intent was not to cause offense.
In U S courts, if you preface a statement with “I would say”, you can follow it with any insulting statement. By saying ‘I would say’ in effect you’re saying “I would say this, but I’m not gonna”.
Hell – Jesus, Himself was killed for Blasphemy. It’s a somewhat honorable charge. Remember Jesus in the Temple ? He never like religion himself.
Maybe it’s time for these zealots to try reading the Bible.
Ireland didn’t *just* make blasphemy illegal, it was in their constitution. This legislation is lowering the fine because they don’t think they can get a referendum to abolish it.
Yes, it’s outrageous, yes this portion of law *should* be abolished, but they are taking steps forward – not backwards. Before you post a sensationalist article, do some real research first.
This may help to explain the law better.
http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2009/07/10/trees-worshippers-and-irelands-new-blasphemy-law/
(And to everyone else: 1. Stop making racist comments towards the Irish or anyone, it feeds into stereotypes instead of progress for mankind. 2. Ireland is a beautiful country with an amazing culture. There are crazy laws on the books in your own countries. Get out there, visit different nations, meet new people, open your minds.)
I’ve seen quite a bit of nonsense about “making it unenforceable”. The problem is, the Irish constitution, as written, was so vague as to be unenforceable. So, they wrote new legislation to also be unenforceable, but which is actually far more enforceable.
If blasphemy were a non-issue, then why is it instead of making the fine 25,000 Euros and giving the police authority to enter an author’s premises (or any place which reasonably may have copies of a statement deemed blasphemous in a court) to confiscate materials, did they not make the fine 1 Euro and deny police the authority to break down doors and confiscate materials?
Hogwash!
If the Dail wanted to make an unenforceable law, they could have. They chose to create this monstrosity, which I have no doubt whatsoever will be used by Muslims against non-Muslims within the next two months.
Ah, Pastor Mike, hate Islam much? As per usual you’re casting the first stone and judging others. Since when have Muslims persecuted in any way shape or form non-Muslims in Ireland?
It’s pathetic. Maybe it’s time for you to stop denigrating other religions and step up against the “Christian” injustices in the Middle East, but then again the anglo-saxons have always had a long history of taking from others that which does not belong to them, notable in Ireland itself.
Preach on Pastor.
To clarify, taking from the Irish.
Friend, your vulgar attacks against Mike are not serving to glorify Allah.
Maybe you should take the Pakistani example! Here’s how they do it.
http://www.palibandaily.com/2009/08/03/islamic-fundamentalists-burn-christian-village-gojra-over-desecrated-koran/
Just wanted to say you are very correct, it used to be a joke for us to look up US state laws and laugh cause some are sooo silly…to the point they even have laws banning oral sex and certain positions. How would they even enforce that?…have your ex testify that you gave him a BJ?…thats just a small example of crazy american laws. I’m in canada and i’m sure we have stupid laws too but i’m not sure what.
I feel its very wrong because it takes away your right to believe what you want and voice your opinions…without free speech we are sheep following our government…
Go forward and prosecute in my name. The Holy Ghost is invisible, but not imaginary. That would be my father! Is this published in Ireland. If so, I say: “Millions of people believe God and Allah to be imaginary beings.” Are you outraged?
Since every religion’s basic doctrine blasphemes against at least one other religion, Irish atheists now just have to shut up until the theists have all locked each other away, and then there’ll be nobody left to be offended!
oh jesus fucking christ
I know right. Incontestible proof that there is no god.
That’s it! You’re both under IRISH ARREST.
(southern irish arrest)
(i think)
haha. That’s funny.
but seriously, this law seems to be detrimental because restrictions beyond those absolutely necessary tend to inhibit the pursuit of truth in favor of the preservation of the inoffensive falsehood.
I whole heartedly agree!!! I am mortified that this was allowed to go through! What happened to all the blood that was spilled to make sure that our personal freedoms were protected? What pride is there in all suffering and wars that made it possible? Are those lives now meaningless in the face of this fist step back into the dark ages… and what is the next step… what about blasphemous acts… I can’t wait till they try to control sex outside the bonds of marriage!!!
Whatever..but if any of you claim that there’s np flying spaghetti monster, I’ll have you arrested…
That sounds like a really bad idea for everyone involved, whatever their religion or lack of one.
I mean, the Bible should be considered blasphemous by Jews and probably Muslims, so it would potentially be banned. Freedom of speech is vitally important, people!
I write this as a Christian, by the way.
It has always been a crime, as required by the 1937 Constitution (article 40, 6.1.i). You can get your copy at http://www.constitution.ie/constitution-of-ireland/ in English or Irish.
It sounds like the situation isn’t as simple as I had thought:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0710/1224250387007.html
Still, if you don’t want the Government swine to be able to hide behind the Constitution, that seems like the thing to get changed.
Thanks for the update, Paul! From your article:
This sounds like a needless and dangerous law that can easily be abused.
It may contradict the human rights articles 2 and 18 (freedom of religion and thought) and article 19 in particular (freedom of expression).
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/
I have to ask… who gets to decide exactly what is blaspemous? Where are we going to find someone honest and stalwart enough to take on that onerous duty… hmmmm…. thats going to be a bit difficult! Trying to find someone with no agenda or personal beliefs according to their religion… after all blasphemy is all about interpretation…
Is this some sort of joke?
Seriously, who the fuck would think this asinine shit up but a mental reject?
I am embarrassed of my Irish lineage at this point in time.
can’t read the article. Obstructed by some stupid popup that follows the page around.
Too bad. I’m sure the article was probably interesting too. I wanted to read it.
The Close Window button doesn’t work?
On my FF i never saw a close button, but there was a dot and a line in the top right, and klicking that worked… Ads like that should be banned.
Im a fat American. Junk food is my religion. Thus you you stick figures are no longer allowed to call junk food bad things because it is offensive to me.
> The Close Window button doesn’t work?
No, it’s being hidden by a youtube video. It is quite annoying, actually.
Grrr. Sorry.
Removed it.
Potato famine, british occupation, boom and bust, and now complete idiocy in the parliament. Hasn’t Ireland suffered enough?
Next up: Law against outraging the government and any reasonably big businesses.
After that: Government bans fake headlines describing their failures.
i really want to know what shane mcgowan has to say about this, the comprehensible parts of what he has to say at least
Actually, not taking into account that it is a clear violation to the right of free speech, I can understand where they are going with this.
If everyone would just keep their religion to themselves, and would not be allowed to disprove other religions a lot of violent outbreaks in the name of xfill in your belief herex would have been avoided.
Especially considering the Irish history, this rational does not seem far fetched to me. If people would have the understanding to respect one another regardless of culture, religion or upbringing, we would not need measures like this. Sadly enough, we prove to each other every day that we as a species are not able to handle free speech..
I oppose the new law, but I clearly see the reasoning behind it.
Take care,
Kris
Stupid paddies – going back to the 12th century just like their economy.
Thanks for the “stupid paddies” remark, it’s nice to see open and intellectual discussion.
In Ireland we’ve been having quite a lot of discussion on this law (although not enough in my opinion), and the situation isn’t just “oh no, crazy Ireland wants to protect God”.
Basically, the Irish constitution says that blasphemy is illegal, but nowhere in the law does it legally outline what exactly is blasphemy and what isn’t, so the choices the government had were 1- rewrite the constitution, which will require a national referendum on the matter or 2- quietly pass some pissy little law which outlines what blasphemy is and hope it’s never actually enforced. The law, as quoted in the original story here, says that if there’s any “literary, artistic, political, scientific, or academic value in the matter to which the offence relates” then it doesn’t count. So, Life of Brian? Still good. Richard Dawkins? Perfectly safe. Drawings of Muhammad? Lovely pieces of art. This is only a gag on free speech in the same way that restrictions on hate speech are, and can only be used when the point of the blasphemous material is to grossly offend a huge amount of people, and nothing else.
Having said all of that, I think it’s still a crap law and would have much preferred a referendum to remove the blasphemy clause, or at the very least reduced the fine from 100,000 euro to 100 euro, rather than 25,000, but it’s not a big a deal as it seems at first.
BTW I’m Irish, so I am entitled to say Stupid Paddies. Stupid country, stupid church, far from stupid people though. I am amazed anyone is still living in Ireland,we are all smarter than that.
I’m Irish and I take offence at the remark, though I believe anyone is entitled to say it.
I also think you’re silly saying that you are amazed anyone is still living in Ireland.
Great! Pastarafians can sue now for blasphemy against His Noodliness.
Irish Stew in the name of the law!
Senator Ivana Bacik will open the first Atheist Ireland AGM at 2 pm tomorrow, Saturday 11 July, in Wynns Hotel in Abbey Street Dublin. Members of the public are welcome to attend.
The meeting will discuss a blasphemous statement to be published in response to the new blasphemy law passed yesterday in the Oireachtas. See opinion piece about this in today’s Irish Times: http://bit.ly/11i56G
The meeting will also plan a long-term campaign to have the blasphemy law repealed, and to remove references to blasphemy and gods from the Irish Constitution.
Atheist Ireland is an advocacy group that campaigns for an ethical and secular Ireland, where the State does not support or fund or give special treatment to any religion. As well as a secular Constitution, we want to see a secular education system.
We are also launching a campaign encouraging people to read the Bible and other sacred books. Objectively reading the Bible is one of the strongest arguments for rejecting the idea of gods as intervening creators or moral guides.
God is an drugaddict invention, jesus was a bastard, dalay lahma must die, ala is a fucking misogin and yahve is a sodomith. No god, no king, no country, no boss. Anarchy!
one moment… but this law is a sin, cause only God can judge you
amazing law from the middle ages, next one will be Inquisition and torture… now the earth is flat in Ireland
you need freedom of speech if you like the freedom, otherwhise good luck with your fanatic country
Oi… How much longer till I am property again and get burned as a witch!!!After all according to some faiths, as a woman I can only commit sin without a father or a husband or a man period to curb my licentious ways!!!
oh dear……really?? I’m in so much trouble..I wonder when they’ll make all women wear a burka to cover their indecensies…..as we need our wicked ways to be curbed and hey i’ll take the rap for original sin…Adam had no freewill at all and could never say “No” to Eve…Gods, what fools religion makes of men..and women….oops hope i didn’t offend anyone….
As one of the (seemingly few) Irish people that spoke out about this law over the past months, I was amazed how little people cared. I attended a few meetings, sent letters to politicans. I informed colleagues, friends and family about it, just so they were aware of what it was and why it was dangerous. And do you know what I found? The same thing that most liberal Americans found when their country was entering into an illegal war against Iraq. Complete fucking apathy.
All you people out there! I’ll bet that your country has stupid laws too, and they pass new ones all the time. And while that’s going on 99% of you will sit watching with your mouth open, while the flies buzz around your empty heads.
If you do bother to be informed about what is going on on your country (where YOU can actually try to do something about it) you’ll be amazed. For about a minute or so. But outrage takes time and energy, and it’s much easier to sigh, say “What CAN you do?”. And then it’s back to the latest episode of Lost.
In Tennessee it’s legal to carry a gun into a bar
In Thailand it’s illegal to chew gum whilst walking down the street
In New York it is legal to shoot a Scotsman within the ‘old city walls’ if he is carrying a bow and arrow.
In Indonesia, the punishment for masturbation is decapitation
It is illegal to enter the English Houses of Parliament in a suit of armour
It’s also illegal to die in the English Houses of Parliment
Ofc Ireland is an ass-backwards country, always has been lets be honest. We should get some tugboats together and move it to Africa, theyll feel more at home there.
If retarted legislation like this would ever make it to rest of europe, is the day when I give up my life and become a serial killer of politicians and religious freaks.
Nuff said, gtfo
Sorry Dude here in Africa we don’t want those fellas you keep em, We got enough crap of our own
The author of the article is misinterpreting the legal articles.
I am not defending the bill because I think it’s ludicrous; however, it’s important to read it correctly.
First, you would only be guilty of an offense if what you say or publish outrages or would outrage a “substantial number” of people belonging to that religion. Now, this can be interpreted differently by different judges, but the point is that it’s not the one-off, random comments they are after. It is targeting those people, likely to have access to a public audience, who say or publish things that are “grossly abusive or insulting” to aspects of one’s religion. Dawkins’ book would be defended under subsection 36(3), as it would be deemed by a reasonable person to have genuine academic value. Same would go for anything else that can be defended under that subsection.
Second, contrary to what the author claims, the government *cannot* just enter your premises and confiscate any material it feels is blasphemous. You must first be convicted of blasphemy under section 36. Then they must secure a warrant, and they have the authority to seize the materials that relate to your offense.
This article by Pastor Mike is not helpful. Yes, people need to know about such asinine laws and fight to have them removed, but it should be taken in context. Trying to scare people by misinterpreting the law is not any better.
On your first point, Vinny, demographics determine a “reasonable person”. Would a “reasonable person” find the Mohammad cartoons to have artistic or literary merit? Or are they intended to cause outrage? How about Mapplethorpe’s “Piss Christ”?
On your second point, review the legislation more closely. Under subsection 2 of section 37, Once a person is convicted under subsection 1, the police may enter ANY premises to remove ANY copies of the “blasphemous materials” belonging to ANY person. NOT just the convicted person. They do need a warrant, but that’s it.
do something about it.. i’m sick of athiests bitching about the rights that have been taken away from them. All they do is try to provoke believers of faiths with words but they dont lift a finger…big talkers…. they just cry… one day you will kick yourselves for not doing anything when christian’s have worse of a grip on you then they do now. no wonder a new thing to bitch about comes out every week in the blogosphere. because they never do anything about it but bitch on the internet. Keep bitching and keep doing nothing.. obviously it helps
I’ve been an atheist for as long as I can remember now and I wasn’t aware I had to attend any rallies or fight for any causes. If the religious would simply take a moment to consider that there may be people who don’t subscribe to their particular brand of faith, and every brand of faith did this, we wouldn’t have these issues. It’s the religious making the assumption that all those around them should agree with their bizarre views. Thankfully, there are enough brands of superstition to attack each other and new ones seem like they’re popping up every day, so you folks can all keep each other busy with your arguments about holidays.
As for provocation, anyone trying to provoke anyone else that they don’t know is probably a dick, regardless of what they believe. The issue with this law isn’t that it’s a “don’t be a dick” law, it’s a “don’t offend the delicate sensibilities of the religious” law, and the religious have some of the most delicate sensibilities there are. Hell, they hate atheists and all we ever said was “God who?”
I wouldn’t get to wound up over this. As pastor Mike acknowledges, Blasphemy has been an offence under the Irish Constitution since the constitution was first put in place. The purpose of the law is to repeal previous more strict law which actually “criminalised” blasphemy (you could go to jail for it). The the Bill seeks to (a). decriminalise it and (b) by providing the key legal defences at section 36 (2) make sure that all academic comment/ artistic expression ca NOT be viewed as blasphemy (which would inlde relisgious, theological debate or any of eth issues raised by pastor Mike above).
It should be noted that, in the only significant case ever taken previously, the Judge said that as it was almost impossible for the Courts to determine what constitutes blasphemy, no conviction could be made. this position is not alwtered by the Bill. This is a storm in a teacup.
Eventually, I am sure there will be a referendum to remove the relevant article from the constitution, but until there is, the State is bound to have legislation acting on it. As Pastor Mike acknowledges, the STATED purpose of this bill is to render unblasphemous anything bar a religious based hate crime in the eyes of secular law. there is no appetite (or demand) at this time for a constitutional amendment whichwould cost millions to run when we are closing hospital wards duue to eth economic crisis. However, perhaps this Bill will create the necessary demand and debate. The point is that, the resposne to the Bill is hysterical.
re the points above
Atheists can be prosecuted for saying that God is imaginary. That causes outrage. WRONG – both academic scientific debate exempted under the Act
Pagans can be prosecuted for saying they left Christianity because God is violent and bloodthirsty, promotes genocide, and permits slavery. WRONG – academic and political debate exempted under the act
Christians can be prosecuted for saying that Allah is a moon god, or for drawing a picture of Mohammed, or for saying that Islam is a violent religion which breeds terrorists. – WRONG academic and artisic expression exempted under the Act (political if one were to consider, say eth Danish cartoons)
Jews can be prosecuted for saying Jesus isn’t the Messiah – WRONG – the Act spefically defends all relisions – by the same logic Jews could seek a prosecution of someone who said Jesus IS the Messiah!!! Also theological debate is academic debate and therefore exempt.
iC – In response to your response:
Atheists: Is saying, “Your God isn’t real” an academic or scientific debate? I think not.
Pagans: Is saying, “Your God is a monster” an academic or scientific debate? I think not.
Christians: Is the work of Geert Wilders (Fitna) an academic debate, or have artistic merit? Doubtful!
Jews: How is the preaching of a rabbi about Jesus an “academic debate” any more than the rantings of a Christian pastor saying that the Bible commands us to stone homosexuals to death?
To say “There is no empirical evidence to support the existence of god.” is an acceptable academic statement.
To say “There is no empirical evidence to support the existence of Santa Claus” is also an acceptable academic statement.
To say “There is an equal amount of empirical evidence to support the existence of god as there is to support the existence of Santa Claus — none.” is also acceptable, because this is a true statement, not an opinion.
Would it be illegal to then state that Santa Claus is imaginary, after having stated that both Santa Claus and god both have an equal amount of supporting evidence (big fat zero)? What if someone actually believes in Santa? How does the government distinguish between the validity of a view such as the belief in Santa Claus and the belief in god?
The problem is they cannot have it both ways. Either they must make it illegal to be offensive toward ANY belief with no basis in reality, or none at all.
Academic, artistic, scientific, and literary value are defenses against blasphemy charges. I would love to see that play out in court, especially with an atheist defendant.
What about the Jedi? Can one blaspheme against the Jedi? What if I was to say that Luke Skywalker is b_tch!!! Could I be prosecuted for that? C’mon! Seriously, I don’t know how the law-making process works in Ireland, but if the people can allow this legislation to pass, then there is something seriously wrong with the process there.
Dear Dail members, fuck you and your tiny little gawd too. Your genocidal skydaddy and his pedo priest minions can all eat shit and die in a fucking fire. Is this blasphemy yet?
I think the priests putting their erect penises into the anal sphincters of young male children is far more blasphemous than anything an atheist could ever say.
Wait, hold on, I forgot about the churches covering up gay rape in and moving priests around rather than taking disciplinary action against them. That’s much more blasphemous even than even one individual act of gay male rape pedophile itself, since it’s on a macro level. Macro-gay-pedo-rape.
This is scarey. Guess Ireland is now off the list of possible vacation spots!
From the regulation:
“(2) For the purposes of this section, a person publishes or utters blasphemous matter if (a) he or she publishes or utters matter that is grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any religion, thereby causing outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion, and (b) he or she intends, by the publication or utterance of the matter concerned, to cause such outrage.”
“(3) It shall be a defence to proceedings for an offence under this section for the defendant to prove that a reasonable person would find genuine literary, artistic, political, scientific, or academic value in the matter to which the offence relates.”
I think there are a couple of problems here with some of the erlier statements. First, the wording of clause 2a says “adherents of that religion”. It does NOT say “Irish adherents”, “reasonable adherents”, nor any other qualification which might prevent a finding based upon a group of priests, mullahs, shamans, disciples, or whoever else might be sitting in a temple in the middle of Antartica, if that is where the religion in question is locally dominant. Hence “The Satanic Verses” is now again in play.
Second is the reliance upon “a reasonable person”. One of the first things taqught in law school is that the “reasonable person” is the great fiction of law. There is no such thing as a reasonable person, just how a judge might decide to interpret that on a given day. If it was so obvious what a reasonable person might think we would not have so much trouble with little things like defining pornography, what is valid political speech, what constitutes reasonable serach and seizure, and the like. Don’t count upon “a reasonable person” to keep you safe. As they also say in most law schools, the law is what the judge will do the day you are in court. If you think all judges are always reasonable, then you can sleep peacefully tonight with this law on the books. That is, until the thought police kick in your door and drag your compouter (yes, the one on which you are reading this) out b ecause there is a temporary file listing this discussion, and someone, somewhere, has taken offence at something in this stream of responses, and that temporary file is a copy, and you participated by posting to this stream, and (to return to the regulation):
…the court may issue a warrant (a) authorising any member of the Garda Siochana to enter (if necessary by the use of reasonable force) at all reasonable times any premises (including a dwelling) at which he or she has reasonable grounds for believing that copies of the statement to which the offence related are to be found, and to search those premises and seize and remove all copies of the statement found therein, (b) directing the seizure and removal by any member of the Garda Siochana of all copies of the statement to which the offence related that are in the possession of any person, © specifying the manner in which copies so seized and removed shall be detained and stored by the Garda Siochana.
(2) A member of the Garda Siochana may (a) enter and search any premises, (b) seize, remove and detain any copy of a statement to which an offence under section 36 relates found therein or in the possession of any person, in accordance with a warrant under subsection (1).
Well, I won’t be revisiting Ireland any time soon, then. Pity, because I’d been looking forward to it.
This is not a joking matter in the least. It’s a very dangerous and horrific occurrence. I’m having a hard time believing it’s true. If that happened where I live, I would do whatever I had to to leave the country.
The funny part is that in making such a ridiculous decision, they’re probably opening the floodgates for a whole new wave of anti-Irish stereotypical jokes. Thankfully, they’re all drunk so they don’t even know we’re making fun of them.
I suggest we start flooding the Ireland Government with blasphemous emails and show them just how much the world is outraged at their stupid law. What are they going to do, subpoena me via some extradition order? Hell, the canadian government won’t allow me out of the country for a vacation let alone to be tried under something this stupid. BTW, I’m an atheist…
I am also an atheist and I think the law is not only absurd but extremely unjust and dangerous. How can they be so stupid?
I don’t know that flooding them with blasphemous emails would help the cause of the people. If anything, it may just fuel their fire. You have to consider the mentality of the idiots who made the laws. If they were logical people it might work, but it’s likely to cause them to clamp down even harder and to fear non-theism even more. People like that can’t be persuaded by such methods.
Perhaps someone should let the Irish know their first religion was druidry…similar to the rest of europe….so these christian and muslims should all just close their mouths and realize they have been blaspheming aganst the world oldest religions for years ……makes you think……
Religion is like fashion, arbitrary, ugly, and ever-changing. What’s “in” one moment is out the next. Religious leaders are like fashion media, always insisting what they say is correct, as if they somehow know the rules, which, we all know they make up as they go along.
Makes me think about naked dudes shapeshifting into bears.
Time to start filing complaints against the Christians for claiming that Satan/Lucifer is “evil”!
Now that’s funny as hell! It really hurts my feelings and causes me to feel outraged that people in the world believe that our Esteemed Prince of Darkness is an evil guy… I mean seriously, I don’t run around saying God is good, or Allah is just…
For crying out loud, prove to me that God or Allah or some other stupid concept of an all-powerful Creator exists and I will consider being nice to religions as wholes; there are too many religions, all claiming to be the right one, but they can’t all be right now can they?
I think if you could definitively prove that any deity exists, there would be no more atheists. Or they could always just make being atheist illegal, whichever one is easier.
Ok so now we’re on the global scope of stupidity…..People the world over will wonder at how it affects them and say ” It’ll never come here” or ‘ it won’t affect me” but it does. they are saying religion which means that according to my understanding any religion can claim blasphemy according to it’s doctrine and dogma….. watch out world.. first we can’t smoke now we can’t believe what we want to cause it may offend someone…..be well….enhance your calm…and be ready to eat grass like the rest of the world wide sheep who let these travesties against personal freedoms get passed by governments no longer making rules for the people, but to control them.
Exactly. Stupidity like this spreads like the plague. It could spread if unchecked. We live in a society dominated by religious lemmings who live without personal accountability. There are, however, a growing number of us who are waking up, beginning to think for ourselves, and who are not content to be herded like sheep. I think that’s what the Irish government sees happening so they are making a pathetic attempt to shut it down before they lose that chokehold. It’s too little, too late. They are going to have to control their citizen’s access to the internet if they want to make it stick.
We just need to invent weaponry that’s too advanced for them to operate. Then we’ve won the war.
If you consider the oubt around what a nuclear weapon exchange would actually cause, which implies we haven’t a clue what will happen if we ever launch those things, I believe (and as an agnostic I don’t believe in much, e ven in the non-existence of God) that we have met your threshold, and we now have weapons too advanced for any of us to operate. And of course, many consider the existence of nukes as proof that mankind is basicaly blasphemoues, since we seem intent on wiping out whatever it is that whatever it is or was has created (if you believe in that creation sort of thing). So I will submit, it is blasphemous for nuclear weapons to exist, and Ireland under their new law should follow the lead of certain other countries and refuse to allow any nuclear weapons, or any ships or planes carrying nuclear weapons, to enter their country, airspace or seaspace. Maybe they shoul even boycott any ships or planes or travellers or products flagged from countries which maintain nuclear weapons, since preparing to blow up God’s world should surely be considered blasphmous intent. That should get some feathers ruffled.
I’m shocked and puzzled by this legislation. I never imagined that the Irish would spell the word “utters” the same way that we do in the civilized world. For years I thought it was spelled “ooters” in Ireland. I guess I must have read Ulysses one time too many.
This reminds me, I heard a pretty good Irish joke recently. A man walks into the bathroom in an Irish pub and sees a blond-haired fellow standing only 3 feet tall. The blond guy says, in a high pitched voice, I’m a leprechaun and, because I like you, I’ll grant you three wishes.
The man thinks for a minute, then tells the leprechaun, “I’d like to have a large, beautiful house.” The leprechaun responded, “Done! When you go home tonight, it will be to the largest, most beautiful house in Ireland. Now, for your second wish?”
The man ponders for a few minutes what to ask for with his second wish, then tells the leprechaun, “I’d like to have a beautiful wife.” The leprechaun responds, “Done! When you go home to your mansion tonight, the most beautiful woman in all of Ireland will be in your bed waiting for you. And your final wish?”
The man thinks some more, knowing that he has only one wish remaining, then finally says, “I’d like to have a huge penis.” The leprechaun rubbed his chin, then said, “I can do that for you, but you’ll have to let me screw you in the butt.” The man didn’t want to be screwed in his butt, but he also really wanted a large penis, so he finally agreed.
While the leprechaun was screwing the man in the butt, the man said, “I can’t believe I’m letting you screw me in the butt.” The leprechaun responded, “I can’t believe you think I’m a leprechaun.”
The Irishman later contracted AIDS and, due to his pre-existing liver condition (as a result of years of heavy drinking), his health deteriorated rapidly until he died weighing under 90 lbs. on his mattress without a box spring, alone in his studio apartment. Unfortunately, because he engaged in homosexual behavior, his all-knowing and all-loving god sent him to hell to gnash teeth and live in torment and agony for all eternity.
The End.
What if you say it in the form of a joke like
God exists… NOT!
“It shall be a defence to proceedings for an offence under this section for the defendant to prove that a reasonable person would find genuine literary, artistic, political, scientific, or academic value in the matter to which the offence relates.”
Doesn’t that clause basically make the entire bill useless? If I draw Mohammad that is genuine artistic value. If I say “There is no God because there is not concrete evidence of a God” then isn’t that of genuine scientific and academic value? Every case of blasphemy has some literary, artistic, political, scientific or academic value. When the blasphemy goes to court and a “reasonable” person would have to decide–then doesn’t that mean they could not be under the delusion of religion? A reasonable person by the definition of “reason” is by nature not religious. This is a major conflict in this bill. I am right? Please tell me how that is not a serious conflict that makes the entire bill pointless.
That’s exactly the point of the bill: that there will never, ever be a conviction under this law. People are just having a knee-jerk reaction and thinking “stupid irish” without actually looking at the law. This wasn’t a law that was brought in to punish people who blaspheme, it was brought in because the Irish constitution had a reference to a blasphemy law that doesn’t exist, and bringing in a new law that will never be used is easier than holding a nation-wide referendum to change the constitution. It’s stupidity and it’s laziness on the part of the government, but it isn’t an attack on free speech or religious debate.
Oh yes it is an attack on free speech, it is an attempt to shut down all criticism of Islam in Ireland. Actually, it is even even more than an attack on free speech, it is an act of War against the Irish Republic, since the objective is by making criticism of Islam a no go area, whilst Islamofascists and Islamonazis are free to spew forth a torrent of abuse against Irish society, to demoralize and disintegrate Ireland as a progressive democratic society, to pave the way for the introduction of Sharia law and Muslim Arab rule in Ireland.
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
Why would they need to impose Sharia? This sort of law is a huge step down the path to a native Irish version of Sharia. Why defeat your enemy when you can coopt and convert them into something so like you that the difference is unimportant. Fear of Islam has already brought out the religious fanatics in the US and given us maniacs like Cheney and Bush in charge. Islamic militants and Irish militants have been cooperating with with each other for years. It isn’t about religion, it is about power and money. Follow the money.
Lawmakers can’t be so stupid. So the only reasonable explanation is that they do it on purpose.
As a Christian, I think this law is ridiculous. Belief systems conflict, to the point that a fundamental tenet of one system may be blasphemy to another (i.e. the Christian belief that Jesus = God is blasphemy to the Muslims, and saying Jesus =/= God is blasphemy to Christians).
What the fuck Ireland. What the fuck.
InfoWars on a PrisonPlanet
I knew the place was going to backslide into a nunnery once the money ran out but I didn’t think it would happen so quickly and thoroughly.
Farenhiet 451 and 1984 are here.
This’ll be over quickly once they realize that Christians can’t say Jesus was the messiah since it’ll offend Jews, etc.
I shat on Mohammed’s face today.
This is amazing. This is archaic thinking. This is dangerous.