Poll – What keeps atheists in line?
As Christians all know, morals come from God. That’s why they have the Bible.
Note: This post has been edited to suit our new editorial direction. Most posts made before July 8, 2009 have not been so edited. -Mike
“I know what is right and what is wrong because God tells me”, says the Christian.
Atheists don’t have the Bible, and they reject God entirely. So, what is it that keeps them from going out and raping and stealing and murdering at will? What prevents them?
Is it the laws that “Godly” people put on the books, coupled with fear of punishment?
Is it part of their sinister plot, to prove that they’re “just like normal people” until they can take over?
What is it?
Vote in our poll!
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Missing option: Because they have?
They have what, Elwood? An evil plot?
Mom was right, it’s an atheist conspiracy!
Is moral behaviour static and consistent through both time and societies? History and an evaluation of this modern era dictate the answer is no, it is not. This leads me to the conclusion that there is no detached moral code where our seemingly innate sense of fairness derives from. How much of your morality was learned? How much was self-evident? Can you recall the years of behaviour modification your guardians subjected you to in order to mold you into a functioning member of society? Would a person from long ago or far away uphold all (or any) of the moral edicts you were indoctrinated with in spite of an alternative upbringing into a different society? My shorter point: morality is relative and no one religion, culture or person may lay claim as to what is right, merely what is beneficial to the same source of such morals. (For instance in Islam’s history and even to the present day there may be edicts about murder, yet such respect for life is not applied to an unbeliever.) I uphold moral standards which I agree with primarily because I care about myself, secondarily because many of them make logical sense. I don’t “know” what is wrong any more than you or the next person, but I have a good enough sense about me to know that I would not dare impose on another person’s will. Religions do exactly the opposite and impose upon the believer’s sense of fairness, manipulating and brainwashing one to be an unthinking actor of unevaluated (declared unquestionable) dictates.
This is a silly poll. Atheists act like they have morals because, like almost everybody else, we DO have morals. It’s like asking “Do atheists act like they have noses.” There may be one or two noseless atheists but the vast majority have noses. Similarly, there may be a few immoral atheists (just like there are a few immoral goddists) but the vast majority of atheists have morals.
It’s not difficult to have morals when your morality is based on society and respect towards others. But how can you have a strong moral base when you base your morals on a fictional book that advocated SLAVERY, BEATING your SLAVES, RAPE, MURDER, GENOCIDE, MASS ABORTION and Stoning CHILDREN to DEATH if they are Disobedient. Its easy to have morals as an atheist. Its GOD-WORSHIPING morals I don’t understand.
Why do you reject God’s Rulebook?
I mean, I’m glad to see you’ve at least read parts of it, but then you claim that it’s fictional (no, it’s quite definitely a real book) and say that things it says to do are bad.
God decides what is good or bad, not humans! That’s why we have the Bible!
Not to interpose here on anyone’s behalf, I’d just like to examine with you a few questions which need be addressed with the logical conclusions of your statements.
First I’ll address the circular logic (logical fallacy) masked in your declarations that the Christian Bible is a rulebook for humanity as imposed by a deity. To declare the stories and explanations of moral codes as factually coming from YHWH you must evidence thus: that the passages as we know them and as translated throughout history are indeed of a divine fount of dictum unrelated to the thoughts of those vessels used by YHWH. Lofty a chore as it is, I’ll assume that your answer will be akin to “For it is written by divinely inspired men.” The problem here is that there is no evidence aside from credulity which will allow such a conclusion to be universally agreed upon by everyone, everywhere, though it be the wish of the adherents of Christianity (as well as most adherents of other faiths respective of their own.) Wherefore does the evidence come then?
Second, as an assumed soloist in the matters of complex, rational thought processes, man becomes separate from all animalia in regard to how societal, ethical and virtuous mores are not only derived upon but how such is passed from one generation to the next. The delimiter is language of course, a tool fashioned through time to aid in our species survival. You may argue the specifics of theories pertaining to development of such faculties, or you may casually disregard all evidence to the contrary to declare “We were made to utilize language for such a reason no matter our preferred notions of the method of endowment.” Though not as cerebrally engaged with reality as we’ve come to know it, virtually all animals use some of their non-verbal, hereditary and/or observational faculties to engage with the physical world (including contact within or without their own group) according to what may benefit the most their survival and thus those indwelt faculties. They are no different in their manner of passing beneficial (or destructive in the case of predator/prey/parasite relationships depending on which is being fed and which is dead) behaviors along save for this device we’ve adapted to use as our own.
Still pertaining the second point I’d like to use an age-old example of mother birds of some species unselfishly feigning injury to lure marauding carnivores from their clutch. How this was arrived upon to occur I’ve my own conclusion: as a response to the stressor which plagued their kind time and again throughout countless generations the creature reacted in such a way as to allow this propensity for reckless disregard for it’s own safety to pass on to the next of her line. It makes me wonder though, how complex is such an act in the mind of the animal? There are times when such a ruse is not employed, implying decision making abilities where consequences are weighted according to other stimuli and factors – such as how well developed the chicks may be, how early in the mating season it is or what have you. The animal must be conscious of those things for it’s mind to work on those facts which surround it, the same as we humans.
Getting back to which, and how the above relates to the first point, I will put it simply as I can: what does the language of YHWH benefit in Its Holy Ethics – Itself? Or those who’ve produced through interpretation of thought into passable form, into the language of describing what benefits survival of the creature and it’s societal constructs? Where you may differ here I haven’t a clue, please illuminate your thought path, think deeper, live for thought – it’s really all we’ve got to call our own… well, hopefully you’ll disagree with that now!
TL;DR.
Is there a question in that Wall O’ Text somewhere?
Also, I strongly recommend “Words that Work: It’s Not What You Say, It’s What People Hear” by Frank Luntz. You have a lot to learn about communicating . . . unless your only goal was to demonstrate your excellent vocabulary. I’m sure you aced the English portion of the SATs . . . Last week, was it?
I wasn’t talking down to you nor disrespecting you by saying what I said and in the manner I had, it’s simply the only way I can express, in full context, the arguments and points I have. I’m sorry it seemed unreadable to you. It isn’t a wall of text, each paragraph pertains to one central point, perhaps the webmaster would be so kind as to enable proper parsing of carriage returns?
And since you donned the gloves first, I’ll recommend a book for you as well: The Merriam-Webster English Dictionary!
That was unnecessarily rude. Mr. Green suggested a book to help you communicate with people. Your post is not conversational; it is a lecture, or more accurately, a harangue. You clearly attempt to use language to intimidate rather than communicate.
First point of yours: Where have you, in my mother’s article, seen circular logic in the assertion that the Bible is the Word of God?
Second point: What has the Creator-programmed instinctive self-sacrifice of birds to do with morality, which is given by God to humans?
Third point: What does God’s Law benefit? God created the universe; He created humans; He created the Law. He directed us to follow the Law. It doesn’t have to benefit anyone or anything that we mere humans can comprehend; it only has to suit God. Those who follow the Law are rewarded by being permitted to serve God in Heaven for eternity. Those who reject Him will be punished with unending torture in Hell.
It’s really a very simple concept. Perhaps you’re trying to make it more complex than it actually is, friend.
“You clearly attempt to use language to intimidate rather than communicate.”
Not the case at all. I’d rather you and him quit assuming to know my motives. Isn’t that for God alone to know and judge? I wasn’t being unnecessarily rude either. I returned a riposte similar to Mr. Green’s about the SAT comment (which you have to admit was somewhat rude.) I apologize for that.
And thank you for asking me to clarify, that I will do.
Maybe breaking down the fallacy into simple statements will help:
A. All morality is derived from ‘God.’
B. The Bible is the Source for such morality.
Assumption: The Bible is 100% accurate.
Assumption2: The writers correctly interpret God’s word.
C. The Bible states that it is correctly interpreted through men. (aside: which is the only evidence for corroboration.)
From C thus A & B.
I was wrong about what fallacy I think I’m seeing (and I won’t put this argument into anyone’s mouth, no need for strawmen.) It relies, though, on a priori commitment to the idea of a God in the first place, and an infallibility of men to carry out Its will.
For a shorter version of what I’m trying to get at with the birds, all I’m trying to get at there is that we’ve put to words rules which guide everything. My differentiation from your views is the source of the rules. In my opinion the rules seem overwhelmingly adaptive and not at all prescriptive. Evidence for that appears in the commonality of many of the rules presented, in both humanity and animals.
As for the adaptive point, take the big ‘K’, if you will: thou shalt not kill. From a social standpoint, unjust and unwarranted killing would be maladaptive to a societally impetused creature. How long would any society last if there was not an innate sense of self-preservation amongst any of the members, where arbitrarily killing (despite confirming some advantage to the member at first for a limited time) was rampant? The answer of course is not through even one generation: when the group developed socially as a species, it happened for a reason, and that reason was survival of that species or group.
I’ve noticed that many of the rules of the Bible are socially constructed. Even the ones about observing the same god and not worshiping other gods preserve the Jews as a functional group, helping them to identify with each other on some numinous level.
I’ve run out of time to respond, I’ll get back to this later. Just know I haven’t intended any harm or to disrupt your forum.
And yes, it is complex. Which is why not everyone agrees on theology, philosophy and Christianity. I’ve had my upbringing, and you yours’, were we to switch places could you adamantly say now that your mind would work the same and you’d come to the same conclusions? I know mine would work the same but, given different influences and circumstances my conclusions, and how I arrived at them, would most definitely be different so as to adapt to the environment of my society.
Only a fool would claim that the Bible is correct because the Bible says that it is correct. That’s ridiculous. However, the Bible is accurate, and here’s why:
God is omnipotent and omniscient. (If He’s not, He’d not be much of a Creator, now would He?)
Therefore, He knows exactly what the Bible says and has the ability to change it, in every Bible in the world, in an instant.
For all we know, perhaps He has changed it. But it still says what it currently says.
Therefore, it is what He wants us to read. If it were outdated, He could easily adjust it to meet current needs, or make sure that it says things that apply at all times in all societies. Again, He hasn’t changed it, so it must be accurate.
You, of course, start with the assumption that God does not exist. You then warp all reality to suit your existing worldview, disregarding any evidence to the contrary. This is typical of the closed-minded atheist.
Hey if the only thing stopping you from raping kids is an invisible man, I don’t think I’d want to hang out.
I guess he’s only partially effective too AMIRITE?
Hi, Paul. We changed editorial staff and direction here at the Paliban Daily on July 8, 2009. This post is from the “old guard”.
You may wish to have a look at our About page and find out what we’re up to now!